Charting Your Own Path in Automation: Insights from Jessica Morell

[00:00:00] Welcome to Automation Ladies, the only podcast that we know of where girls talk about industrial automation. I'm your host, Nikki Gonzalez, and today I am alone. Ali is out in the field. She got stuck on a project, so as you guys, if you know us already, we have day jobs. Ali's got her own business with Process & Controls Engineering, LLC. She's got, uh, a lot of field work. She's on call for a few customers, and today happened to be one of those days, but thankfully the guest that we have on today, Jessica, is somebody that I really reached out to and wanted to talk to because I noticed her LinkedIn profile. Got to see her through a couple of mutual connections, Ryan Tracee and Jeff Winter. It's ISA right? That you guys are a part of? 

Yeah. 

And noticed her profile and I saw that she has been in different positions in the industry from distribution to consulting. And if you guys know me by now, what the work that I do at QuoteBeam, I deal [00:01:00] with a lot of distributors. So, I was very interested to hear her story and it took us a few months to get together and get her on the pod. That's who is with us today, and this will be a conversation between me and Jessica. I do want to thank our sponsors. Our season two sponsors are still Clarify and FactoryFix. If you haven't heard about them before, clarify is a platform for collaborating on and analyzing industrial data. You can check them out at clarify.io. Very easy to get started. They're great folks over there that can help you and you can get started for free without paying anything. And then factoryfix.com is a recruiting platform for manufacturing workers, anywhere from shop floor to engineering. If you're looking for people for your plants, or you are looking possibly for a new adventure or a new job, it is a great place to connect the right type of talent that has the type of skills you need for the positions. And vice versa. Check out factoryfix.com. And then this episode we have a very special sponsor, [00:02:00] it is our friends, and we sometimes call it “Sister” podcast, but it has turned out to confuse some people: Mavens of Manufacturing. You can find them at mavensofmanufacturing.com, and it is a show on LinkedIn live. It runs live every Friday at 11:30 AM central time if I am correct. And it is run by our very good friend Megan Ziemba. It is un-unrelated to Automation Ladies. Other than that, we have both been on her show. She has been on our show. We are very good friends, but Megan interviews women of all types in the manufacturing industry. So, she's not specifically about automation, but it is a very cool show. And if you're not familiar with her or the show, definitely follow her on LinkedIn, and check her out. Her show also is live on YouTube. And then all the recordings are available. So, with that said, Jess, thank you so much for coming in the show. How are you today? 

I am good. Thank you so much for having me, Nikki. I'm happy to be here. I'm excited to [00:03:00]be here.

Yeah, you're very welcome and thank you again for coming on and talking with me, even though Allie is not here, but I, yeah, very interested in your journey. I try not to introduce people from their bios. It'll be on the guest profile on our website, automation ladies.io if anybody wants to check out the specifics of what Jess has done or where she's been. But can you tell me just in your own words, you know, how did you get started in the automation industry and how did you get to be where you are at this moment in, in consulting? 

Yeah, so it's been, it's been an interesting journey and probably a non-traditional type of journey, I guess I would say. But I graduated from college with an electrical and computer engineering technology degree about 10 years ago from University of Dayton. And honestly, I left school, and I was like what do I want to do? There's a lot of different options. So, I spent some time kind of exploring what was possible, and I did quite a bit of interviewing at the time. And, I'll be honest, my dad works for Rockwell Automation and so I had known a little bit [00:04:00] about what the automation industry looked like and what his role and that sales type of role where you really get to interact with different, you know, clients and customers on kinda a day-to-day basis. And I knew that that was something that I was definitely interested in. Cause sometimes when know when you're in school, the traditional engineering was very much so, like, you know, you'd go maybe do design work, didn't talk a ton about automation in school. So, I was like kept really interested so I ended up landing at Revere Electric Supply in their automation apprenticeship program. Which allowed me to, and Revere is a Rockwell Automation channel partner. So, they are an electrical distributor. 

Okay. 

So, they've been around for a long time. Um, just kinda like a mid-sized, organization. And I landed there and I did their apprenticeship program where I got to learn all about distribution. So, I even worked in the warehouse for two weeks. I learned about finance and, you know, accounts payable and inside sales. I kind of worked in every department for a little while. And then I learned all about the Rockwell Automation [00:05:00] solution. So, I did a little bit with their industrial controls and software and drives. And then I ended up ultimately after about a year, starting as a PLC HMI specialist there. So, I really supported clients, and customers with their PLC applications for about two years. 

I…now I know Allie is not…is gonna be sad that she's not here.

All good. Yeah. No. So that's why I say it's interesting like a lot of people are like, oh, you got this consulting. Like, but you started in this very, I think what's interesting about my career is, I've had experience and a lot of different types of experience throughout it. 

Yeah. 

And you wouldn't necessarily guess that if you looked at my, LinkedIn profile today and where I'm at today.

Right. And my, my journey is pretty similar. I kind of, you know, found my way, weaved through the automation industry in different ways, but I didn't know that it existed either. I thought that engineering was exactly designing, sitting behind a desk, and so it didn't appeal to me until I realized that there is a thing called like sales engineering [00:06:00] and that it's problem solving and working with customers instead of sitting behind a desk all day. You're kind of like the liaison between the guys that sit at the desk and the customer, and it is a very technical role and it's great to have that technical background, but it touches both sides, right? You get to, you know, work with people, you get to have some business skills. I didn't actually realize that a distribution company of that size would have like an apprenticeship program, so that's actually really cool. I'm a huge fan of kind of getting your hands dirty in all parts of the business. I grew up working in my dad's small business, so I feel like by the time I got outta college, I always look at, when I work for a company, I can't help myself, but look outside of just my own role, cause I feel like I need to just know where the ship is headed and what needs to happen for that ship to keep going there instead of just like showing up and doing only my little, my little part. But yeah, also, the only reason I found my way into this place was my dad is an engineer, so that is very common. We hear that sort of thing, like otherwise how the heck would you know about it? Cause it's [00:07:00] not like, Rockwell is very well known in popular culture or even industrial automation at this point.

Yeah.

I think I was at an event last week at Rapid Robotics Headquarters in San Francisco and there were some journalists there. Tech journalists, not like our industry folks, but you know, people from the Wall Street Journal and independent journalists that write for the BBC and stuff, and they were like, “Like what? What's the big deal? Robotics has already been around for like 30 years. Isn't every factory already automated?” and that's why no, there's no factory jobs anymore. And I think we haven't done a great job as an industry of letting the outside know what's happening with us. Yeah. And really promoting it.

Cause I, I, even 10 years ago in college, nobody really didn't talk about it. But I think a lot of the people I went to school with and that were in my classes, Ended up in the manufacturing automation space, there's quite a few in the same space. So, it just, it's interesting how that kind of worked out.

Yeah. So, what led you, or how did you make your next move going from that [00:08:00] distributor and what kind of steps have you taken in your career since you started there? Yeah. So about, you know, three years in at Revere, I had decided, I really wanted to work for maybe a larger organization, get an experience, that had a lot of growth potential, or at least the ability to kind of maybe take a couple on a different, Type of role.

Yeah. I was doing PLC HMI stuff, but I had also become more interested in networking, so doing like industrial networking. Even at IP, I had gotten my Cisco, um, industrial networking specialist certification at the time, and I ended up going to work for WESCO distribution, the industrial automation arm, which EASCO, which is also Rockwell channel partner.

Okay. But a bigger one. Yeah, but a bigger one with more geography and then a lot larger of an organization attached to it. So WESCO is a, you know, 17 billion, I wanna say 16 to 17 billion organization. So just a different type of environment. Yeah. And so, it was to go there and get that feel of what it was like to work for a large company.

And [00:09:00] what were your main like takeaways between, you know, how does that experience just juxtapose compare to the smaller regional distributor? So, I think there's a couple things, and I think some of this is kind of similar, just from a smaller to a larger organization. Yeah. In a smaller organization, I think there's more touchpoints to leadership.

Um, a little bit less of maybe hierarchy, you know, than you see in maybe a larger organization, a little more nimble sometimes when you want to make changes or do different things instead of having more of the like levels to go through and more approvals and things like that. Yeah. For me it was. One of the biggest things, and that's always been important in my career, is the opportunities that are available to you.

Yeah. So, if you wanna go work in a different side of the business or working on different, you know, for a different team or travel or go to different locations, that felt like there was a lot more, opportunity to do that at WESTCO than I had at Revere. But both were great. Yeah. And did you really then get, like more into the networking side of things?

Did you support mostly Rockwell products [00:10:00] there still, or were you expanding into other technologies, other vendors? Yeah, so I did, so I did mostly Rockwell, but I also supported other vendors. So, I worked with like Pandit, Cisco, some of those other kind of networking ones. So, my role, at EASTCO/WESTCO was doing basically the networking specialist. So, I was supporting information software, so I was doing a lot with like historian and factory talk view, and things like that. And then I was also working with the Cisco industrial networking side of things as well. So, like the Strat switches, which I know are Ali’s favorites.

Uh, security side. So, I was doing like, I basically was a product manager for those products. So, I had moved a little bit away from the PLC side. Still very connected to that. Yeah, definitely. But more definitely networking information software side. And that's, really more so interesting me like that digital manufacturing.

At the time, ethernet IP was still like new to client, like new to manufacturers a little bit like they were, you know, people were using it, but they didn't fully [00:11:00] understand it. They were still using a lot of like legacy communications and a lot of these old plants. And so, for me, I felt like it was a really cool opportunity.

I did a lot of trainings for like clients and things like that, but it was a cool opportunity to kind of like get people excited about it and. Teaching. Yeah. You know, manufacturers, how to really leverage that technology and all the really cool stuff it brought to them, like connected devices and being able to collect data from the plant floor.

So that was what really excited me about it. Do you think, I mean, there's still a long way to go there, right? In terms of just opportunity to still educate and move, manufacturers forward and using that technology. Yeah, I think there's been some progress, but I think it's slow moving. And I think manufacturing tends to be a little bit slower, but there's still a lot of area for educating, and building up, you know, existing infrastructures.

I think there's still a lot of like older manufacturing plants and infrastructure out there, which is still gonna be a challenge I think, for years to. Yeah. So, if you wanted to stay, you know, in, in that sort of business, or especially now [00:12:00] also getting into cybersecurity, it is an endless opportunity for those that, that specialize and know how to do this stuff.

Cause I think that there's also a shortage, just like there is with controls engineers, right? Of. Industrial networking specialists that know exactly how to set up these networks and you know, not just configure the switches, but architect the systems and then connect different things and doing so safely.

Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot different than the IT side, right? I think a lot of people think, oh, it's the same or really confused, you know, there's really the difference between OT and it. And even I was reading something, it was like the OT and IT convergence. I feel like we should be converged already.

we're still talking about it and it's still really important. And yeah, I agree that there's definitely like a gap there and experience, especially on the security side. So then after… after sometime you ended up in consulting, and I know you've had a couple different types of consulting gigs, right?

With being customer facing and a little bit more internal. Yeah. I don't know much about that world. So, what do you guys… who do you help and how do you help? [00:13:00] And how has that transition been for you? Going from, being a vendor essentially to now probably more of an advising type role.

Yeah. So, I can start a little bit by explaining. So after, you know, I took, went into consulting and I worked for Accenture for about a year. And it was an experience. I really wanted to find, figure out what's it all about. I don't think I really totally knew what it was all about.

But what I'll say is there's different types of consulting firms, so there's more like the tech consulting and implementation and strategy side, which is what Accenture does. Mm-hmm. Um, and there's like the strategy consultants, so like the BCGs, the McKinsey that do that higher level strategy work. Work as well.

So, I think when, a lot of times I think people think of consulting as all that same stuff, but they actually do. So, you know, there are firms out there that actually do implementation with their client work and then also do the higher level strategy as well. So, there's just kind of a, so that's what I would encourage, like if you're interested in getting into the industry, take a little bit of a look at like different types of consulting groups out there.

[00:14:00] Cause there's quite a few and then there's also like the big four, which do, you know, a mixture of different things as well. So, it's kind of, I think like most things, from the outside when you don't know the nuts and bolts, you lump things together and then once you get in it, you realize how much you don't know and how much you know, how much there is to it.

Right. And, and nuance between the different companies, roles and so on. Like, I ventured into real estate investing for a little while in between my sort of tech work. and I, you know, on the side while I had a job, bought a couple houses, did a rental, did some renovations, and I was like, oh, great. Now I, I like this. I know about this. I've done it twice. I did it well. 

Mm-hmm. 

Let me now go do this full-time. And then I realized how much I don't know about it, like doing it professionally, being in the industry. Then you realize there's a hundred in. 110 different options or ways of doing something. And it's different for every market.

And you know, I think for most things in life, you can look at it that way. I don't know. The [00:15:00] differences in many different types of ice. Right. But if I lived in Greenland, I probably would care more about that so you're, that's, that's also one of the reasons why like you're inside into the world of consulting.

I was very interested in, cause from the outside it does again seem, it's just like, oh, it's consulting firms. Don't they all do the same thing? But they definitely do not. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I, you know, going in didn’t…didn't know that at all. I think I did to like some extent; I knew about the role that I was getting into at Accenture, but I definitely didn't really understand the landscape of consulting and how many small and like boutique consulting firms there are out there as well.

And some that just do clearly like restructuring of organizations. It's, it's an interesting field and until you get into it, I don't think you fully understand it, but I agree. It's kinda like anything, until you get in there and really start to get into it, you're not really sure what's going on, you don't truly understand it, I guess is how it.

Yeah. Yeah. So, if you had any advice from anybody that, like you said, take a look at it. If somebody you know has been in an implementation role or a sales role in the industry and is interested [00:16:00] in getting into the consulting, I guess other than take a look at all the companies and study what they do or is there any other advice maybe that you can give also on just, and then this is maybe more of a general question, but.

Making sure that you have the best feel for what you're getting into before you take a job. Like are there questions that people should make sure to ask during the interview or make sure that they understand about the position before they get in there? Yeah, absolutely. So, I think a lot of these firms are starting to hire more on like the automation side.

I even just gotta reach out from one looking for a PLC programmer, and I thought that was very interesting. Yeah, so I think a lot of these firms are growing and really trying to hit that more of that manufacturing side. What I learned through the process is there's a little bit of a difference.

So, there is, the consulting side where you're gonna be a billable or a chargeable, you know, asset to the organization. So, you're going to be working on projects with the client. And then there's also a non-con consulting side where you might be doing more internal strategy or, you know, more go to market kinda stuff.

Mm-hmm. [00:17:00] and what I would say, in the organ, like things that I would ask now are like, are there chargeability components? There's always like a percentage of. There's always like a target for your chargeability or your billability, as they call it in some firms. Yeah. So, like that, what type of work would I be doing?

What kind of projects are kinda currently going on? When I first, so at Accenture, you, you interview for the role and you get the job, and then I basically went in and you almost interview again to get put on a project. 

Ok. 

And so that was very different than anything I had ever experienced. But that's kind of how all consulting is. So basically, you get into it and then you're constantly looking for the next project or looking for, you know, where you can help that organization. So, or you can kind, you know, hone in your skills. So, I would ask a little bit more about the types of projects, what type of work you would be doing.

 What does the business outlook look like right now? Like, is there a lot of projects going on? A lot of availability and opportunities. Cause I think, at the end of the day there [00:18:00] is that chargeability component that you're trying to meet. So, you're going to have to take a project like, and it might not be exactly.

what you're looking to do, and so I think there's got, you have to take a little, go in there with a little bit of flexibility too, and being open to learning new things and maybe going on something that isn't exactly what you wanna do, but there's also a lot of opportunities to do things that you do wanna do.

It just kind of depends on the environment and the timing for sure. Yeah. A lot. Timing and who you know. Yeah. I feel like that is also very good general advice for non-con consulting. Opportunities in the industry. A lot of what we do is not very well defined in college, right? A lot of these positions maybe don't have a very direct funnel from a certain place, and so the people that I see succeed the most are the ones that are hungry to learn and are willing to.

Get a little scared sometimes or challenge themselves, but then just have that mentality of, okay, I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna learn it. I'm gonna do what I need to do and ask questions along the way and…and get better at it. Because most of what we do in our industry, [00:19:00] like there isn't somebody that can hold your hand a hundred percent and tell you.

What to do all the time. Yeah. And that's also not how you end up growing. Right. So that brings up a, something that you mentioned, uh, also ahead of the call. Something that I know Allie and I have experienced plenty of times, and I'm sure plenty of people, and not just women, but it does seem to maybe affect women a bit more, but imposter syndrome.

So, I always have thought too, like oh, you need to be an expert in something to. with somebody else, or to give anybody advice. And we even see this, like people that we invite to come on the show, they're hesitant cuz they think, well, I'm not any kind of expert in this. How can I go talk about it? You know?

But the, yeah. The answer to that is, at least to us on the show, it's like, well, a, it's your own experience. You are an expert in that. And B, there's always somebody two steps behind you that feels like you are an expert in something that they're not. And I think we also just need to get rid of this fear of everybody that you think is an expert might [00:20:00] also be thinking that they don't know what the heck they're doing.

So, have you felt that, did that come into play at all? You know when you ventured into consulting or even maybe before that? Yeah, I think I've experienced an imposter syndrome a couple different times throughout my career. I would say early on when I didn't know anything. And I think that's a perfect example of going into something and being eager to learn and be excited, like early in your career, but also going into consulting.

It was really a total switch of type of job. I kind of did know that it would be like that, but I wasn't. Totally until I got into it, I was like, this is totally different. And I think you're sitting around with all these very smart people who have, you know, high level degrees and some of them PhDs, and you're like, do I fit in?

Do I belong here? Am I smart enough to be here? And so, I definitely think as entering it, I felt that way. But as I was talking to people and one of the things I didn't mention before in consulting, it's like really important to network and talk to people and meet as many people as you can to kind of help with that staffing piece and to get to know different people [00:21:00] they can reach out to.

And so, as I was doing a lot of that, I would be talking about my background and telling about the things that I did and they were. Oh, you're perfect for this role. Like you've got all the experience we're looking for and I think we sometimes are, I feel a lot of imposter sydrome from, it's very internal, right?

It's how we feel about yourself. But most, most likely, other people don't feel that same way. And so, I think talking to people, I think realizing like you were hired for a reason. They brought you into that role to do something because they saw your potential and your abilities and capabilities. And I also think that we sometimes just internalize stuff too much.

So, I think talk about it with people and just know that you belong. Right? I think there's a lot of times where it's like, do I belong at this table? Like I don't know anything about this but be eager to. Ask questions and then also remember that a lot of it is internal and just to try to shake it off.

I know that's a harder said than done, but I think it's just, some of it's just a mindset in my opinion. And so, it's hard to, but you can definitely move past it. Yeah. I actually, uh, I personally ended up in [00:22:00] a, in my position at Algo, which was the first startup that I really worked at full-time anyway.

Mm-hmm.

I, I rose very quickly. Like I started in sort of director of business development role and then I landed a really big account and then I got promoted to VP of sales and then it, I just all of a sudden started to show up in these rooms with. People that I thought were way beyond my caliber of experience or so on, right?

Mm-hmm. 

And my CEO told me something once. He said, never walk into a room and feel like you have less power than the other person. It doesn't matter what your title is, it doesn't matter if that person's the CEO, CFO, or the president. You bring something to the table. and they do, and you wouldn't be in that room if you didn't have something valuable to bring to the table. And so don't think about it from any kind of power dynamic standpoint. Like you have all the power that you need to be in that room. 

Mm-hmm.

And if, and he was actually giving me this talk more so related to, we had, uh, I think an incidence where something, somebody was inappropriate with me after a meeting, and I felt bad [00:23:00]because I didn't want to ruin that business.

Relatable. 

And so, I was like, I don't know what I should do about this. And he said, do not ever feel like somebody has more power over you, that you can let them be inappropriate or act a certain way. You know, if they're not being respectful or if they don't take you at your value, then you don't need that.

We don't need that business relationship. And that was the first time I had heard from like a C just straight up tell me, don't just walk away. Like it's okay. And it was very liberating for me. 

Mm-hmm.

And also, just to realize I sat in on meetings actually with some consulting companies. At 1.1 of our clients brought in, a strategy consultant that was helping them develop process and then to see whether or not we would be one of the vendors to kind of fit into helping them implement this process.

And I sat in on some of these meetings and I was like, I'm just gonna sit here and be quiet because I don't have anything like, these are just very experienced strategic consulting people and very experienced, executives at a large corporation with tons of just, you know, decades of [00:24:00]manufacturing and leadership experience.

And then it turns out that a couple of times I had. A couple of questions and suggestions that at first, I was like, I'm gonna feel dumb asking this or saying it, but I decided to anyway. Yeah. And they were all very happy that I did because it was like a question or a fresh perspective that they didn't have or wouldn't have thought about to ask anyway.

And it also got me to see that, like that's one of the reasons why I am so. Personally invested in and I'm not necessarily a huge, like I don't do it full-time, but an advocate for getting people to understand why diversity and inclusion is so important. Because yes, you may on paper have five people that have the highest and best credentials.

It doesn't mean that just putting those five people together, you're constantly, you're always gonna get the best ideas or the most innovation, right? Sometimes you need to put a few of those people that. Less experience or just a completely different set of experiences or perspectives. And then if you openly have that conversation, you might come up with something much [00:25:00] better or much more innovative than you would otherwise.

Yeah. Anyway, so that was me coming on my little soapbox. We do this on the show sometimes I try to let the guests talk most of the time, but, well, it's totally okay. I think first I relate to having that experience where someone's made you feel inappropriate and how do you approach it and you don't wanna ruin a client relationship.

I, that's happened to me probably more, more than once. And I think I relate to the whole, you know, inclusion, diversity, it's so much more. Gender and race, it's about your background, your experience, and just because you don't have a PhD or a master’s degree doesn't mean you don't bring a lot to the table or bring a different experience into the organization.

So, I think that's just really important and it's definitely crucial, I think, across the board in all organizations. Yeah, so one of the, you know, one of the reasons we do this show is because we want to be able to show young people, women, I mean, just anybody that maybe doesn't see themselves in the industry as much or hear conversations from people like themselves.

Obviously Ali and I don't represent everyone, we can't, um…

Mm-hmm.

[00:26:00] but we can at least, you know, we found for ourselves, we represent kind of our cohort age-wise and women in the industry, which, like you said, when you entered there, were less than there are now. There's still not enough, but we want them to see, hey, there, there is a place for me.

And then talk through some of these experiences that we've had. Like not because we want to put the industry down or that, the majority of interactions we have with everybody in our industry are great. But yeah, when you get to be able to count the bad ones on two hands or more, then it is still an issue, and it does still need to be addressed.

And especially from our perspective, I just want any like person that's out there that feels. Like they maybe don't have resources, or they don't know what to do in this situation. If it happens that they at least know that, hey, it's happening to a lot of people. It's okay. We can talk about it. You can get past it.

Sometimes it's okay to just walk away and other times you have to. I don't know. We are an industry where you sometimes have to tough it out, or figure out, you [00:27:00] know, what is worth, whether it's, calling HR over or risking a relationship. Because as much as I wanna tell you, walk away every time a customer does something inappropriate, when you have that sales goal or that billable hour’s goal or whatever that is, you end up making a tradeoff, am I okay?

Am I gonna like gloss over this behavior because I don't wanna ruin the relationship. or am I gonna, you know, say that that's enough. And I think everybody needs to decide what their line is for themselves. Outside of course, having a code of conduct. You know, if there's a company handbook, there's certain things that, you know, lines that should never be crossed.

But then there's a lot of that kind of gray area where you have to decide for yourself, like what, what's okay, what's not? What was maybe badly intended, or maybe it was just old school behavior that people don't know is inappropriate anymore. Do you run into that quite a bit? 

Yeah, definitely early in my career, especially when I was walking a lot of manufacturing, plant floors all the time. And definitely I think there's a couple things. I think early in my career I was scared to bring up [00:28:00] instances where I felt uncomfortable or something weird was said, or, you know, I stood in a room once where this guy gave a card to everyone but me, but I was the one there to answer the questions. Just like little things like that that you're like, that really made me upset.

Yeah. Time went on and I became more confident in my skills and my capabilities and what I brought to the table, the more I would advocate for myself. Cause I think there's an important piece there. It's OK that you can advocate for yourself. And I think I was also lucky, in some of my roles where I had somebody that I was close to in the organization that I could go to and talk to and be like, hey, this is what happened. I felt uncomfortable. Like, what should I. So, there are people out there that wanna help and wanna talk about it. But until you bring it up and you say something, the behavior will never change. Right? We wanna, none of, you know, there's a lot of great people in the industrial automation field in our industry.

There's a lot of great people all over, but it's. It's, until we talk about it, nothing's going to change. And so, advocate for your, for yourself. [00:29:00] Find that person that you can talk to and it's okay to, to bring it up. If something feels uncomfortable, then that's, it's uncomfortable and you can talk about it.

I think a lot of people, sometimes you rationalize things, right? Yeah. Or like, oh, well, they probably didn't mean it that way, blah, blah, blah. But your experience is your experience, and it's valid no matter what. Absolutely. Whether someone absolutely. or not. So, you know, and I think it's important for others in our organizations and in our industry to speak up as well when they see something.

So that's important too. But yeah, definitely. So, if you have somebody at your organization that you feel comfortable talking to, whether it's a male or female, I think some of our biggest advocates and people that we've been able to talk to about this sort of stuff are actually men. So, I wouldn't even say, go find another woman in your org.

I've also personally sometimes felt uncomfortable talking with women in my organization. If they're either in like a superior role or they're more in a different function than I am, just because they're a woman doesn't make me feel like that's the person, I could confide in. 

Yeah. 

So, if [00:30:00] you have somebody at your organization that feels like a peer, feels like a safe person to talk to talk to them. And if you… there is all kinds of networking now outside of your physical organization, so you can join an industry group and maybe we can talk a little bit about that as well. You've had some roles, getting involved in these industry groups. And then for us it's like automation ladies.

That's a big way that we, you know, we talk to each other, between me and Ali and Courtney and Megan just being our friend and Lyza, like we talked to each other, but we've also had people message us asking for advice and, we've kind of created group messages with some of our former guests that maybe had similar roles or so. If you, if you can't find anybody in your org and you're not finding, an organization that you can join readily, you. Come message us. We'll talk to you. We'll give you some advice. You'll probably get a lot of conflicting advice from us because we all have lived our different experiences and would deal with a certain situation a little bit differently.

Yeah, and my advice is [00:31:00] also never take advice if it doesn't feel right for you, because again, only you know your lived experience. And sometimes we'll give advice like this is what I would do, but that doesn't always work for everyone. and that's what makes us, you know, that's what's so great is that we would, tackle things in different ways.

And that's kind of the whole point, to everything. But I think. Yeah, I would say if there's someone not in your organization, reach out. Network. I know I'm always happy to talk to anyone. So, you know, just there's a lot of people who want to help. And I agree that we talked a little bit about how, I think all of my go-to people, by the way, were men Yeah.

In the organization. A lot of great ones out. There's a lot of great coworkers I've had in the past and now too. But it's, you know, I, it's always funny cause I remember he'd pair me up with like a new intern or something like, well you're, you're both women so you probably have a lot in common.

Right? Like, it's like that mentality. It's like, no, I mean like, yes, we, no problem, but you know, we can have something in common with anyone so it's not, you know. Yeah, definitely gender. Gender does not somehow make us like, have [00:32:00] a lot more than that in common sometimes. And as much as we started the show is called Automation Ladies, cause I like this, podcast called Office Ladies.

And I just really was like, I want somebody that I can be friends with and talk about automation with. And that was a cool name. But I think a lot of people misunderstand it like we're some sort of women's organization or a group for, you know, oh, I have a woman in my company, they should join you. And I'm like, sure, I would be happy to.

But like if I don't like this person outside of just their gender, like I'm not. Wanna talk to them anymore just because they're a woman. Right. And I think a lot of us too are tired of being the token woman on a panel or at your organization. Right. There's, and it's hard, right? You want to do, you want to, increase the representation, but at the same time realize that that's not the only thing that defines us.

Especially, I think most of us that came up in this industry, without a platform like this, it's like we're used to going at it alone. We don't feel like we need, you know, a cohort of women supporting us or coaching us all the [00:33:00] time. Personally, I got so used to just working with men all the time and I, I think this is also goes back for me, like I had mostly guy friends in high school.

Like in my AP physics class, it was only boys and then me, so I was just more used to that. Now when I go. Events filled with only women. I feel a little bit weird, to be honest. I'm like, I haven't been in a room with this much estrogen, and I don't know what to do with myself. 

Yeah, I actually really relate to that.

So, I think in every role I'm so used to being the only woman in the room. And you kind of get used to it, to be honest. And in my current role, like my past team was. all women. Like I had never experienced, I've never been on a call where it's like all women and it's interesting and you think you're like naturally gonna have a lot more in common and it's gonna be like this really awesome.

But there was still a part of me that's, you know, we talked a little bit about imposter syndrome, but I think it's also just like I didn't know if I really fit in because. I am, I'm not married, I don't have a partner, I don't have kids. And I was like the only one who did it. So, I think there's still [00:34:00]those differences that are much broader than just like our gender.

So, it's, yeah, definitely. Right. We can find common commonalities and differences with all kinds of people. Exactly. But speaking of industry organizations, so you were the marketing. For your division, like it's the I OT Networking division, right. Of, and I don't know what the official name of it, but at the isa, is that correct?

Yeah. Yeah, so the International Society of Automation, which is a great organization that really focuses on industrial automation, you know, from a global perspective, a really great organization with a lot of people. So, I, was the marketing chair for the smart manufacturing and IT/OT division.

 And then I also, before that was involved in the Will page section. So that's how I originally got my start in the organization. So, they are, throughout… throughout the world, um, geography, you know, geo-located, so Will DuPage is just counties outside of Chicago, so it's really like the Chicago Land One. And someone I [00:35:00] worked with was really involved and said, hey, you should like come, join in.

And I had done a presentation on digital transformation, at one of their, section meetings. And then I ended up taking the marketing position on their board. And then. As time grew, I learned more about the organization and, and all the really great work that they're doing. And I had reached out to Jeff Winter and said, hey, I'm really interested in, you know, being more involved in this smart manufacturing division, how can I help?

And so that's how I ended up in that role as well. Very cool. I have joined, online by paying my dues. I have not been to any of the meetings, and I didn't know there were so many different divisions to choose from and like coming from. Right now, I sit at this place where I help anybody in industrial automation.

Like I'm not specific to one role. Like I work with people in oil and gas. I work with people that do like water wastewater, you know, instrumentation. I work and it was surprising to me to see these like divisions that are very specific and then also obviously the geographic chapters. [00:36:00] And then there's also like a young professionals.

Group, how would you, what, do you have any advice on like how to find out or pick like where you can get involved in the right place or the right way? Do I just need to like try to show up to all these meetings or should I be trying to pick like my area of interest? Any advice there on how to like, make the most of getting involved in an organization like that?

Yeah, so I think there's a lot of ways to get involved. They have great online resources where you can look different things up and they've got a lot of standards and forums. So that's one way to get involved from maybe if you don't wanna be like a part of a board or something.

I think starting, I would probably start out with looking for if there's something in your geography, is there a section that's close, you know, close to your geography that you can get involved? There's Northern Indiana, Chicago, you know, Milwaukee, there's all, they're all over the place, in Houston and everything.

So, I would take a look at, Where is there a location? Can I, you know, attend the technical meetings? How involved do you want to be? So, I think that's first too, like, how involved do I want to be? Do I [00:37:00] wanna, go to a technical meeting, do I wanna network, just talk to different people?

And then there's also like the division layer. And so, I would say there, I would definitely try to choose something that you're most interested in, get your perspective of where you're like working with all kinds of different organizations and different industries. And so, it's a little hard to choose.

For me, like the smart manufacturing and IT/Ot is what I'm most interested in and happened for a long time. So that's kind of how I picked it. And so that's probably my suggestion. I would, I would kinda like nail down a little bit more of what are you really interested in? What do you want to learn about? What might you wanna help with too? 

Mm-hmm.

So, you wanna do marketing, do you wanna write blogs? Do you wanna, you know, help with some of the standards or training? And so, there's tons of opportunities. So, I would just kinda narrow down what are you most interested in? And then go, kinda go from there.

But it's always great to be involved in the local section as a starting point. That makes sense and I'm probably picking what I'm most interested in learning about versus what I maybe deal with the most at work. Yeah. Because those are not necessarily the same things. Like I [00:38:00] am actually very interested in continuing to learn myself about like smart manufacturing and Industry 4.0 and all of that stuff because it, it's sort of an overarching theme for a lot of the experiences I have had on different sections of this, but at the same time, like most of what I deal with on a day-to-day basis is the very. like more, I would, what, how can I put this? The urgent day-to-day of running a plant or building a machine. It's not so much strategically thinking about, the future of the plant, although that is really probably where I'm more interested other than solving the operational inefficiencies of the supply chain is a big hairy problem that I like the fact that I'm tackling and I'm just like getting in the weeds with people about it all the time. Yeah, but that would probably make most sense for me then to focus on like where in the future do I want to learn more, network more and you know, if I wanted to get somewhere like five years from now versus just, okay, what am I doing every day today [00:39:00] in terms of getting involved in these organizations.

Are there any other. Organizations other than Issa that you've personally been involved with? So, ISA is the main one. I've been considering kind of getting involved in like IEE. I've attended a few meetings and stuff, worked for them. I also like doing, so there's a stem, you know, women in STEM Chicago organization that I'm getting involved with, as well as, girls for Science is another Chicago Organization.

I've started to get involved with as well, in the early stages of both of those. But I think for me, I, I really like the industry stuff like the isa, but I also am very passionate about women in STEM and getting, you know, young girls interested in things, getting interested in manufacturing, but also other science careers as well.

I think it's important. So, you kind of, what I guess cause hypothetical people ask me like how, you know, how do you choose what to get involved And I think it's really what are you most interested in? And what do you want to do? Right? Yeah. It doesn't have to be tied exactly to your, role or your job.

It's, it's really what are you interested [00:40:00] in and how much time and, stuff that you have to put into it as well. Yeah, speaking of time, I, I am very guilty of oftentimes overextending myself cause I'm very interested in a lot of things and I want to do a lot of things, but I do have limited bandwidth.

I have a more than full-time job already. I have the podcast, I have kids. I own a house that requires maintenance and so on, and yard work. And, and so I've struggled with this especially over the last couple of years. You know, feeling sometimes getting close to burnout or even, you know, as much as I denied it last year, I was fine until Christmas.

I ended up taking a solid, like seven days off for the first time in a long time, and I realized I really needed that reset and I came back like refreshed and it was very helpful to me. But do you run into that? Yeah, I, so burnout is interesting, and I think through the course of like Covid kind of happening three years ago, somehow, it's already been three years, but I think [00:41:00] I really started to notice it then.

I think a lot of it is just feeling and I think there's different levels of it. Like sometimes I'll experience it for a couple weeks or then I'll start feeling better. What I've learned is to try to recognize like when am. You know, what am I trying to do? Too much? Yeah. Like you talked about, there's so many things in our lives that we're taking care of, and have to do, and a lot of responsibilities. But for me it was like, okay, I, I'm feeling burned out. I found a lot on my plate. What can I take off of it? 

Mm-hmm. 

And so, like we just talked about ISA. I actually ended up moving my marketing rollover to somebody else. I'd been doing it for about a year and a half, two years, somewhere in there.

And so, it was time to kind of, you know, give that role to somebody else. But I also was recognizing Kate, I'm not putting in as much, you know, much of my time. I don't have as much time to put into this, so let me roll that off my plate. There's, now I can't remember the book, but it's around, it's talked about how like you're going to drop a ball, right?

Yeah. Like we can't keep up holding all these balls and juggling them all the time. Like eventually something is gonna [00:42:00] fall. So, I think it's really about prioritizing what you've got on your plate and what you can handle, and what you can do. But also I've also determined making sure I make time for self-care.

Right. So, and that looks different for everyone. I think there's this like image of self-care being like, oh, going to the spa and like hanging out. But self-care is whatever makes you happy. Yeah. Whatever you enjoy doing. Right. Taking, scheduling that into your day, scheduling that into your week or your weekend and making sure you do it.

And so that looks a lot for me. It's like maybe binging some Bravo Housewives show, because that's mindless for me and I don't have to think about. Right. And so, it takes a little bit of that stress off. One thing I also love is like putting my do not disturb on, on all my Apple devices to take a little bit of time for myself.

I've also been limiting like social media and things like that as well, and that ties a little more into like mental health, but I think it's, just, you know, only allowing what you want into your life and kind of helping, I would say like just [00:43:00] You're kind of setting a boundary, right?

Yeah. And I think that can help the burnout a lot. So just kind recognizing it, talking to someone about it, reevaluating all the things on your plate, and just making sure you're making time for yourself to decompress and to kind of disconnect from everything. No, that's really good. And I'm really glad that you said that self-care looks different for everyone because I've actually had some people give me a hard time that I don't take enough time for self-care or that I don't schedule things into my week like going for a massage or time to myself, quote unquote.

So, for me as a mom, like my kids are they're two and five and, you know, that's a lot. My husband is a stay-at-home dad though, so I, for me, like when I come home from work, they immediately run up on me and like, I'm now, full-time mommy until that time. 

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I love that, but at the end of a long day, sometimes it's also a lot, it's not necessarily recharging or resting for me it's quality family time. And that does recharge me in a certain way, [00:44:00] but I don't, yeah. You know, I don't do a lot, like people have asked me like, well, when are you just by yourself? When you're not a mom or you're not, you know, in this position, you're not automation ladies, so I'm. When I'm sleeping, like, I am, I do choose to do all this stuff, right?

I'm the person that piled all of this onto my plate, and I do it because I'm passionate about it and because I love it. But I have found that like this honestly is my me time right now. Like I don't. For better or worse, I've moved a lot in the last few years. I don't have a ton of friends that like, are not either my family or somehow, you know, around, I'm around professionally.

I'm lucky to have really great friends in the industry like Allie and Courtney. And so, like I have those friendships which are nice because they know where I'm coming from. Like it's a little bit harder for me to relate to friends right now. That know nothing about our industry that or cause I just, I get so involved in my work, like I choose these early stage startups, like they're not nine to five [00:45:00] jobs.

And I've had to recognize, you know what, that's just, I'm not a person that thrives in a nine to five job that like, my responsibilities are very well defined, and I do nothing else. I go stir crazy and I'm like, I need to be doing all these other things. But it took me a while to realize like that that's, and I find that my interview with you right now, I feel like I'm like sitting in a coffee shop, having coffee with a friend, and that feels recharging to me in a way that like really helps me.

And the fact that I can schedule these things throughout my day, you know, in between, working with customers or that sort of thing. Like, I don't wanna say I, I never have time, time to myself, but I don't make as much time for it as many people think I should, but honestly like I am not struggling with burnout right now at all.

I mean, last year, like I said, I had, I needed to take some time off and I have had to just like you, you know, realize what balls am I constantly dropping and saying, okay, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, or maybe I need to shift some of this project or [00:46:00] this responsibility onto somebody else and do that thoughtfully, right.

Talk to people about it. 

Mm-hmm. 

And I think, mm-hmm, thankfully there isn't much, there shouldn't be stigma or shame. Taking that step back and asking for help. But I know that sometimes there is, so if you're listening to this and you feel like that, again, you just need to get a few people to talk to.

Trust me, they've felt the same way. And sometimes you don't know exactly why either. You know, you're just like, I shouldn't be feeling this way, but I am. And then sometimes it just helps to take a step back and take stock and maybe even try. Okay, if I just thought about what would it feel like if I let go of this responsibility?

Does that feel any. If it doesn't, then maybe it's not that particular responsibility that's making things heavy for you. But they, I think, you know, all, all of us go through these ebbs and flows, in our careers and talking about it is, is great. I mean, that's a huge part of it. A huge part of just being able to recognize it and that it's happening.

 Some people will say just like power through it, work through it. I think that's when people [00:47:00] end up in like the er, you know? Yeah. If you don't take any action to try to evaluate why this is happening, why you're feeling this way, that's scary, and please take care of yourself then. Yeah. But yeah, self-care doesn't have to be what everybody else tells you.

Like, oh, quiet time going for a to the spa or getting a massage or something. I mean, shoot, I caught my own hair with my scissors and, not because I don't value like getting a good haircut, it's just not a huge priority for me right now. And I know that I would like be crazy just sitting there for two hours, like with somebody cutting my.

Weird example. I don't know why I thought of that, but, that's what some people would care about, self-care, right? They wanna, yeah. You know, make sure that they get time for their hair and makeup and or, or fashion, or clothes, whatever it is that like, you know. Yeah. Makes you feel good. I know I used to make fun of my dad for wanting to watch chick flick movies when I was a kid.

I was like a teenager. and I remember him, he, anytime we would have a movie night or rent a movie, he would like watch a romcom or something. And then I like, especially when I got to high school in college, I'm like, dad, I [00:48:00] want to watch these two hour long artsy foreign films. And I didn't get it.

Like, why did my dad want to watch this? Like VAD entertainment? And then now I realize what he did at work all day. Last thing he wanted was to think or read the subtitles. Exactly. He wanted Turn that off. Turn it off. Yeah. I, yeah, I, I think it's important. Yeah. Self-care looks different for everyone. Yeah, that's, that's enough about that.

But yeah, in terms of organizations too, it doesn't have to be something prestigious. Sometimes you end up finding a fit with a group of people that it might be small, might be local, it might not be. And sometimes it's okay, like you join an organization and if you don't really feel like you click there, like there's plenty of them out there that might be a better fit for you.

I like a crazy person thought about, applying for your marketing chair position when you left and. I thankfully when it got to the point where they were like, yeah, there's a lot of other interested applicants here. Fill out this really long form. I was, Yeah. Okay. I think maybe I should [00:49:00]not because filling out the form feels like a lot of work for me right now and I'm too busy for it.

Then actually fulfilling the duties of the position is probably a little bit beyond the amount that I can give right now. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point of just like the. And I think too, yeah, don't be afraid to try something different. I think that, I like that for jobs or professional organizations like be OK with putting yourself in like maybe an unfamiliar or uncomfortable position.

And if it doesn't turn out to be what you think going be, it's okay to take a step back and regroup, refocus, and figure what that right next step will be. You know, I think one thing I've been talking to myself a lot or like telling myself is that like life, there's so much dimension to life and like your career isn't, it's not, it's not who, what defines you.

You can be, you know, it's great. I'm passionate, very passionate about my career and the things that I'm doing and I think a lot of people are, but it's just important to take into those other things. And I think that goes to burnout and stuff as well is like deprioritizing, but remembering what's important.

You know, I think that like just push harder and go through it more. [00:50:00] It's great, but like I think about it as like my health and like the way that I'm feeling and that's really important. So just something to keep in mind. Something I wanted to mention, like I think you've gotta take a step back and remember that there's more to life and it's okay to recharge your batteries if you need to.

Yeah. And I think our generation, or even the younger generation than us, right, like Jen Z and now Alpha, I guess is coming after. , like they're growing up in a different time. They're, they're seeing the world in a way that we didn't when we were growing up with all this connectivity and, and whatnot. But I think also they look at some of these people that are supposedly successful and go, I don't wanna be that when I grow up.

Like, and I thought about this too, like my first job and even my second one being a field sales. An outside sales rep. I loved a lot of things about it, but when I looked at a lot of the people that were ahead of me, maybe five to 10 years ahead of me in their career, I looked at and I saw a lot of them with health problems.

You know, they, they were [00:51:00] overworked. They traveled a lot. They weren't home a lot. They didn't maybe see their kids a lot. A lot of them were overweight. Cuz you end up spending a lot of time in your car and eating out and you know, maybe. Putting that focus on your health. And I thought to myself, that's not exactly what I'm aiming for in 10 years.

And maybe I wanna look at what other paths are out there. But I think also nowadays, like there's been a shift in the job market. So companies do need talent and I think it's no longer. The market used to be like, well, this is how you pay your dues. You come into this job and you should feel lucky that you get paid and you know you're gonna miss your kid's soccer games and you're gonna have to work overtime and you're gonna have to do this and do that.

And most of us kind of grew up with that going yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna show them that I'm the best and I can handle it. But I think kids younger than us, they're like, you know what, no. Why would I. Why would I put my health and my family and like everything on the line for this career where I can see that, people have been laid off, left and right and where's [00:52:00]the loyalty that comes, where's the reciprocating loyalty to me putting like all of my extra energy into this job.

And so I'm hoping that, companies see that, you know, you can try to, instead of just squeezing every extra last drop out of your people, think about how they can be well and you can maybe. Rotate more shifts or give people more flexibility and people actually perform better when they're not constantly like burning the candle at both ends or giving their last straw.

Yeah. I've actually had people take over my position, have heart attacks. I had a person pass away that was working a job that I was working and I was just like, man, like if I was any older, that would've possibly given me a heart attack. Cuz it was stressful. It was really stressful. Um, yeah.

And I, I hope that like industry will see that, hey, there are changes we can make. That doesn't mean we have to roll back everything we do and, you know, change what we actually, what's important. But you can start to think a little bit more [00:53:00] about people's health and wellbeing and stuff like that because ultimately you're gonna get the best performance out of people that are at their best.

Yeah. And I think I'm seeing a lot of change, right? I think even Covid and like the younger generation coming in, I think a lot of things are changing and I think it's great. Um, I think even from just like organizations realizing and supporting more like benefits that all are helpful to the employee.

Yeah. Um, . And I think, you know, for me, like just, recognizing that like when I go for a workout, like I think more clear, I better ideas, I feel better, just prioritizing those important things because it makes me better at my job. Right. And so I think we're all kind of realizing that, and.

I think it's a great, it's a great way to go forward. You know, even coming into consulting like it used to be, you left on Sunday, Monday. You came home Thursday night, like every single week. But the reason I was able to take, you know, went into that role was that that was gone after Covid and it was really just travel as needed.

And I think for The whole world kind of just changed their mindset on kinda that grind or [00:54:00]hustle culture as I can sometimes call it. Yeah, absolutely. So Jess, thank you. This has been a really enjoyable conversation and now I'm gonna ask our last question that we ask all of our guests. And don't worry, if there's any links or things like that, uh, ways that people can reach you, we can put that on your guest profile page and you can even update that later.

If things were to change, but we ask what, you know, what can we expect to see from you in the near future. It's not like your whole five year plan or whatever, but if you have anything cool coming up or just what you think you'll be doing and then you know, where can people get ahold of you or follow you?

Yeah. Happy to, talk to anyone who wants to reach out after the podcast or after listening. Um, my, you can always connect with me on LinkedIn. My messages are always open and I'm happy to share my phone and my email as well. So happy to connect with anyone. And as far as where, you'll see me, I think I'll just probably, you know, continue to learn and grow and kinda experience new things.

 I think I'm one for, [00:55:00] you know, always kinda. Taking, wanting to get new experiences and I think that, a new opportunities and I think that that's what I'll probably continue doing. Hopefully putting myself out of my comfort zone. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely seems like you're one to continue learning and growing and stretching yourself.

Is there any chance that we might see you at any industry conferences this year? That's a great question. I am not sure as of right now. Um, but hopeful. Yeah, I'm gonna make a plug for Automate in Detroit in May. Allie and I are gonna be there. We hope that we get to meet as many of our friends as we possibly can there.

 But I'm sure there's plenty of like great regional shows and things. I'm personally trying to get more involved in the scene here in Houston. I know I missed Houston texts last week. I didn't realize that was going on until I already had plans to go out of town. But yeah, so hopefully see you around, if not in the real world, at least on Linked.

And yeah, please stay in touch with the automation ladies and update us on your next adventure. I definitely will. And yeah, thanks for having me and I'll keep you updated . [00:56:00] Absolutely. You have a great night, Jess. Thank you. Thanks, bye.